Budget Your Business

Bank Series: The Bank Behind the Growth: Lessons from Joe Ford at WinTrust

• Scott Geller • Season 1 • Episode 44

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E#44: Find Your Bank Series: Regional Banks - Joe Ford from WinTrust represents what regional banks actually do for growing businesses and why the right bank (and banker) matters. Joe explains where WinTrust sits as a regional player with big-bank capabilities. We walk through who benefits most from a regional bank and who’s better off elsewhere. Joe shares how to find and vet a banker plus the concrete things you should ask about (cash cycles, reporting, team contact points, and deal structure). He closes with real success stories from staffing and transportation clients that moved from expensive funding or factoring into bank facilities and scaled dramatically.

Book Recommendation: Reality Check by Guy Kawasaki

Podcast Recommendation: Staffing Buzz Network  

Find out more about Joe Ford: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-ford-6519b5107/

Find more episodes on Apple podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music and here: https://budgetyourbusinesspodcast.buzzsprout.com

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Joe Ford:

Through conversations we had with them, you know, we were able to get them a four and a half million dollar facility. Today, they're sitting in a $20 million facility. Again, they've been on the Ink Five Pen, I think, for the last three or four years. So we always love seeing our clients on that list, you know, continuing to grow and grow with them. And I think that's another important thing that that that we do is, you know, while we are a regional bank, I mean, we certainly have those capabilities to take you in when you're when you're on that smaller end of the middle market, but continue to grow with you throughout, which is uh which is something that we always like to see and and it, you know, something that we pride ourselves on. And it's awesome seeing our clients happy and being able to you know kind of help them meet their their goals and dreams.

Scott Geller:

And welcome to budget your business, the podcast for small business owners to learn how to financially plan for every aspect of their business. I'm your host, Scott Geller. Today I joined by Joe Ford of WinTrust Bank to talk about our new series of finding the your right bank. And this is part of a series where I'm bringing in bankers from different types, different styles, different sizes of banks to help small business owners understand if they're with the right bank, the right banker, and maybe if they need to make a change. Welcome, Joe.

Joe Ford:

Hey Scott, thanks for having me.

Scott Geller:

Absolutely. So, Joe, just for a little background and for those listening, I'm breaking banks into mainly four categories, and and this is broken out by the the driven by the Federal Reserve Bank categories. One is global systemically important banks. These are over 100 billion in assets, usually globally. The second is large banking organizations. Those are also over 100 billion assets, but they're really, but they're not globally systemic. So they're mainly based in the US. The third is the regional banking organizations. These are banks in that 10 to 10 billion in assets. So there's about a little over 4,000 of those banks, or I'm sorry, around 90 banks. And then the last category is community banking organizations. And those are banks that fall smaller than 10 billion in assets. And there's about 4,000. And then you have some others, other categories such as CDFIs, saving and loans, credit unions. And Joe, with your for you and coming from Wind Trust, they would fall into this regional banking organization. So it's 10 to 100 billion assets. And that's that's why we have you on board. But I'd love for you to give a little background about yourself and maybe a a quick overview of Wind Trust before we we roll into our questions.

Joe Ford:

Yeah, no, that's uh that's a good tee up for me and summarized well. So as Scott mentioned, you know, I'm Joe Ford. I've been at Wind Trust for about seven and a half years now. Um I started as a rotational credit analyst, did that for two years, moved into underwriting and portfolio management for another two. In the last three and a half, I have been a business development banker in our business credit space. Our business credit space is really our asset-based lending arm of the bank. Um, it's divided into two different silos. You've got traditional ABL and then you've got receivables finance. Traditional ABL, asset-based lending, you know, somewhat speaks for itself. You kind of find similar products across, you know, the various banks that you've mentioned. And then the receivables finance product is a is a fairly unique product that we have, um, but could best be described as a hybrid factoring and ABL product. And I do a lot of work in that space, particularly industries of focus for me are transportation staffing. You know, I know we've obviously been connected prior through our some of our staffing experience and and and shared connections there. So those are kind of where I have my expertise, but certainly Wind Trust is a bank that is full of people like me with different areas of expertise. So you can kind of find it all here, you know, whether that's construction, private equity, you can aim it, we've got it, which is uh, you know, kind of an interesting point uh of where Wind Trust sits in the in the banking ecosystem. Um you know, we are a regional community-oriented bank, um, but we do have a big bank feel. Um, you know, I think we're about 70 billion in assets, so we sit in a unique space, um, kind of in that US banking land. Um, you know, WinTrust itself is based out of Chicago, Rosemont, technically, but you know, Chicago really, um, you know, for uh for the people listening. I myself sit in our office um in downtown Chicago here, um, but I've had the opportunity to uh work with all the different charters that we've been on as well. You know, WinTrust, since I've been here in my seven and a half years, we've more than doubled in asset size. Um, I think when I came in, we were about 30 billion, and uh, you know, like I said, at 70 today. So it's uh it's constant growth. I mean, I there's there's not enough good things I could say about Wind Trust. So uh yeah, I'm looking forward to uh to hearing the questions you've got.

Scott Geller:

Well, well, thanks. That's a really nice setup for for your background and as well as Wind Trust. So just kind of generally, how would you categorize a regional banking organization compared to maybe some banks in some of those other categories?

Joe Ford:

Sure. Well, you know, especially when you think of here in Chicago, you know, you've got the JP Morgan's, the Bank of America's, things of that nature. And while we certainly do compete with those banks, um, you know, I think the biggest difference is kind of the personalized approach and the focus on the middle market. I think we are uniquely positioned in our focus in terms of middle market commercial lending. And again, you could kind of say the same thing for some of those banks that are smaller than us. Oftentimes, some of those smaller banks, um, you know, there's a cap on you know what their risk appetite might be. Maybe that's a bad way to phrase it, but just in terms of what their kind of commercial loan portfolio might look like, as well as the other kind of products they offer. I mean, WinTrust certainly runs the gamut in terms of you know, a commercial lending toolkit and treasury platform. Um, so we have all the same things for the most part that you'd find at like a Chase or a BEMO, you know, to varying degrees. But, you know, I again our real competitive advantage there is just that focus and personalized approach that we have towards the middle market. You know, I think we really value those relationships. And and middle market lending, you know, truly moves the needle for an organization like this, for an organization like us. Whereas you might not get that same level of detail and thoughtfulness from a a banker at you know one of these larger institutions. And then, you know, conversely, some of those smaller institutions just might not be able to deliver the same things that we would do, or just kind of have that that level of that additional level of expertise. We're certainly very lucky here to have ample resources at Wind Trust, which which makes us feel like a like a larger bank. I certainly think that we feel larger than than what we are. So yeah, it's been uh it's it's a rocket ship that we continue to ride.

Scott Geller:

And you know, the the one of the definitions or or terms that that you brought it up, and I I think it can have different definitions depending on who you talk to, and that is middle market.

Joe Ford:

What does that mean to you? Sure. It's a and I'm sure everybody would have a different definition. You know, I would consider the middle market, you know, a company that's doing let's call it 10 to 500 million of annualized revenue, more or less. You know, that can be that's a very, very broad scope that I'm obviously giving you. And certainly we have the capabilities to work on the smaller and larger ends, you know, but our real bread and butter is is that that true middle market there. And you know, the middle market is is really what drives you know the American economy, more or less. Um, you know, there's so many different firms and institutions. Again, just speaking from some of my experience in industries I work in, um, you know, a lot of logistics providers, a lot of staffing providers. I mean, these are companies that are basically crucial into the things that me and you use every single day. You know, um, again, when you're going on Amazon ordering something online, you know, there's got to be somebody to, you know, not only fulfill that package on, you know, and work in a warehouse somewhere, um, but there's also got to be somebody to take it there. So, you know, I think it's a pretty interesting view uh of the broader economy, you know, when you can kind of look at it from that microscopic perspective.

Scott Geller:

And you hit it, there is kind of everybody has their own little different uh definition of small business, middle market. So thank you for that. I appreciate that.

Joe Ford:

I'd be curious to hear other people's answers on that too.

Scott Geller:

But well, it's interesting, and and I think it it depends on what I've found, and I don't know, make maybe you're different, but a lot of times I I I feel like business owners have a different definition than service providers. Sure. Where when business owners are in that maybe zero to ten million dollars, and they're you know they feel like they have a hard time getting out of that, they feel like a hundred million is a huge company, right?

Joe Ford:

It is.

Scott Geller:

But and then some of these that are in that two to five hundred million dollars in revenue, they probably consider less than a hundred million dollars is a small business. So it's interesting uh perspective. I I think it's it's really based on the perspective of the individual. But but I do like your your range there for for the middle market. Absolutely. So um who does WinTrust and maybe an RBO, who who do they could you get a little more specific around who they work well with?

Joe Ford:

Yeah, I mean again, you know, we we talk about the middle market, but like certainly, and again, into the forum of the listeners of this podcast. I mean, I think our you know, the people that work in our small business group, you know, we have an an SBA platform here. So, you know, we do everything from you know companies that that maybe have two to three employees, you know, maybe there's one employee, you know, all the way up into uh, you know, a few thousand employees. So it really depends what you're looking for. And I think that's the most unique part is that maybe I'm not able to solve every single problem that you know somebody would come to me with, but I'm able to know somebody at the bank or get it, you know, put them in touch with the right person at WinTrust, which which is always, you know, if you can help somebody else that doesn't always help yourself, you know, ultimately, you know, that's good karma. And I believe in good karma. So I think just having those abilities to direct people in the right direction, you know, again, not to step on my own words there, is just is fantastic and something that I really value, and I and something that I've heard that our customers value as well, because I don't pretend to be an expert in everything. I mean, there's certain things on, you know, that that I wouldn't be able to answer accurately, but you know what? We can get you in touch with the right person that can. So, you know, that's a lot to say. It's people that value a connection with their banker, and that will be a common theme in a lot of the answers that I would probably have to your questions is that you know, we want you to have a relationship with us, and we want you to value our opinion because we value your opinion. And I think just being able to have a constant dialogue on whether that's in a transaction leading up to a transaction or just preparing, you know, hey, how do I get bankable in the future? Like give me some steps into you know what I would need to do to be bankable in your world or just elsewhere. So again, I don't want to sell ourselves short, but I think we work we work well with just about everybody. With the future.

Scott Geller:

Who does your bank or even kind of a regional banking organization, maybe who do they not fit well with?

Joe Ford:

Yeah. Um, no, that's a that's a good question. And I'd say I'm guessing this is probably gonna be the answer for for most regional banks like a wind trust. But you know, if you have some super large multinational corporation that's gonna require complex international lending, various different entities that, again, you might have people out in Asia or Europe or currency. You know, we have international capabilities, but to the point of like a JP Morgan or a Bank of America or you know, Goldman Sachs, things of that nature, those kind of large transactions, large multinational companies will be more difficult. I mean, I'm not gonna say it's it's impossible, but you know, that would be something that you know a regional bank would probably struggle with. And in that same vein, transaction sizes of a hundred million plus, you know, will be difficult for most regional banks, you know, and I'd argue even argue potentially, you know, 70, 75 million plus. Those get a little bit trickier for a regional bank to justify, just again, given their size and given the risk appetite um uh of a regional bank compared to you know a trillion dollar bank or you know, a hundred, you know, multi-hundred billion dollar bank. And that's why those banks exist, right?

Scott Geller:

Right, exactly. And what about geographically, as far as where the the business owner is located versus where your bank or or other regional banking organizations are located?

Joe Ford:

Yeah, I mean, certainly that can be a a disadvantage, you know, in terms of actual physical footprint. Um, you know, a lot of times regional banks just based on you know the name itself are concentrated in specific regions, right? Um so a wind trust is more Midwest, Great Lakes oriented in terms of hey, you're driving down the street and there's a wind trust. Um now I will say that that kind of depends, and you could get into different groups. You know, my you know, for me personally, like I work the whole lower 48. So, you know, not necessarily geography isn't the end all be all. But if you're again, if you're somebody that that values going into a an actual branch location and you're in you know the middle of Oklahoma, you know, a wind trust would be would be tough, or you know, again, a regional bank that's that's in the northeast, um, you know, probably isn't gonna have that physical footprint down there.

Scott Geller:

Right. And that may and that makes sense. But at the same time, these days, unless you want to walk into a or have a reason to walk into a bank, it sounds like it can work, whether you're in Oregon, Florida, Arizona, or you're located right into Chicago.

Joe Ford:

Certainly. And that's that's kind of the beauty of technology these days and you know where the world's going is you can basically be anywhere in the United States, hell anywhere in the world, and you know, have a conversation with somebody right now. So, I mean, look what we're doing, right?

Scott Geller:

Right, exactly. How does how does a business owner find a wind trust or a regional banking organization? Um, and maybe even importantly, how do they go about the process of kind of finding the right banker?

Joe Ford:

That's a good question. And there's probably you probably get a lot of different answers from a lot of different people. You know, I'd say people like your accountants or your lawyers are are typically in that ecosystem of knowing who the regional bankers are, you know, given you know networking or networking organizations that I'm that I'm in here in the Chicago Midwest area, where you know there's constant referrals back and forth between, you know, again, people that don't even work at Wind Trust but are in other similar fields. That would be one way. You know, I think social media and the internet, frankly, is another great place to find it. You know, whether that's through a deal announcement or you know, you have a specific industry going into a Google or you know, some of these AI platforms, a chat GBT these days, um, it's pretty amazing what you what you'd be able to find there. Um so that would probably be the most common ways to find it. I I would also say, again, you know, whether that's industry specific, um, you know, asking your fellow comrades in the industry if you see there's a peer in your same industry, um, you know, you could ask them what bank they're working with. You know, how do you like it? I think that crowdsourcing those opinions is is a great strategy and something that the business owner should do.

Scott Geller:

And do you have any recommendations around how a business owner as they start talking to a bank, maybe their existing bank or as they're looking for a new bank, what are some questions they should have that that they start that they should ask or be thinking about?

Joe Ford:

Well, I think again, having that initial dialogue with a banker, asking asking, you know, very straight up questions and you know, kind of drilling into the bank, you're almost quizzing them to a sense, and and maybe you're not able to quiz them, but you should be able to just be pretty candid with them. And and frankly, you know, on the other side of that, you don't want a banker that's always saying yes to you and oh, of course, I'll do this, I'll do this. You know, while that's the ultimate goal. I think when you see people that say that, it can maybe give and I gotta be careful with this, but you want to make sure that they're understanding your needs and and asking the same questions back to you to understand your business. So that helps you get ahead of things, it helps them structure deals appropriately, as opposed to just saying yes, going into something, and then six months later you find out that your bank is kicking you out, or oh, this doesn't work, you know, you didn't tell me about this. It's like, well, you never asked. And, you know, that is just as much on the banker as it is on the business owner. So I just think, you know, just being forthright about some of that stuff is always important. You know, I'd say investing in good people is is another thing that you you can't do enough of. Again, coming from a banking perspective, you know, investing in a CFO controller. And I realize that, you know, as a small business, that's not necessarily always possible just from a you know a financial perspective. But those, you know, just making sure you have a team of people that you can trust is very important. And and just building that, you know, internal camaraderie on your own team is is frankly is paramount and going along with that even further and kind of piggybacking off of that. You know, having accurate reporting, having systems in place that, again, while you might not be there today and it might not require that, you know, understanding that you need to invest in an accurate way to represent your financials just helps, you know, legitimize your business even further.

Scott Geller:

I I couldn't agree more. So thank you for those, Joe. Yeah. Do you have like a success story that that you'd like to share with us with a client?

Joe Ford:

Yeah, yeah. There's I'll give you two. Yeah, I'll give you two from both of the industries that I focus on, you know, staffing and transportation. Again, that's kind of where I see the lion's share of my opportunities and and where my client base sits. You know, there was, and and both of these clients started off as small businesses. You know, we're talking, you know, $10, $15 million in annualized revenue. So on the smaller end of, you know, my definition of middle market, they were in high cost of capital structures. Both, you know, the staffing client was with a you know, a payroll processor. And again, nothing wrong with being in one of those. You know, oftentimes you need to start there. But once you start to graduate out of that and you start to have the again, the the performance that that can kind of justify a bank facility, um, not only saves you money, but it just again, it it further legitimizes, you know, your operations. So that that staffing client, um, when we took them over, bank them, they've been on the Inc. 5000 for the last six years, um, which is you know the the fastest 5000 growing privately held companies in in the country. Um, so that's been awesome to see. Um, you know, they're they're uh they're they're awesome. There's not enough good things I can say about them. Same thing kind of on the uh on the transportation side. They were with the factoring company, they were growing like a weed, you know, through conversations we had with them. You know, we were able to get them a four and a half million dollar facility. Today, they're sitting in a $20 million facility. Again, they've been on the Ink Flat Thousand, I think, for the last three or four years. So we always love seeing our clients on that list, you know, continuing to grow and grow with them. And I think that's another important thing that that that we do is, you know, while we are a regional bank, I mean, we certainly have those capabilities to to take you in when you're when you're you know on that smaller end of the middle market, but continue to grow with you throughout, which is uh just something that we always like to see and and it, you know, something that we pride ourselves on. And it's awesome seeing our clients happy um and being able to you know kind of help them meet their their goals and dreams.

Scott Geller:

Yeah, both of those sound definitely sound like success success stories and sound like you're able to help them get to that point, right? Of realizing that that growth. So, Joe, before we start wrapping this up, I wanted to ask one more one more question here. And and we both work in staffing companies, and I'd really really uh be interested to hear you know, specifically, do you have any thoughts around for a staffing company finding that that banking or that credit partner and and how they should think about that credit aspect of a staffing company because it can be so important to their growth.

Joe Ford:

Yeah, I mean, I think you know, figuring out what your what your banking needs are is first and foremost, um, you know, kind of what those borrowing, what those lending needs are. Again, if you're I think the the payroll processing companies and kind of the you know the payroll funding companies specific to staffing, they do a great job and and they are they're a huge asset towards the staffing space in general. Again, they help they help companies that we necessarily can't work with, you know, help get off the ground, you know, but oftentimes we'll see companies that maybe stay in those situations longer than they need to. Um, and they just tend to be more expensive to a degree than again a traditional a traditional bank line of credit. So that would probably be be one thing, you know, for for staffing companies specifically. Again, you know, going back to just asking questions to your banker, you know, making sure they understand the space that you work in, you know, I think that's one thing that we pride ourselves on is that we can speak the same language to you, you know, particularly myself and my team, and speak the same language, um, know how to ask the questions, understand the payroll cycles, you know, hey, when do they actually need this liquidity? Here's why they need this liquidity here. Because guess what? If you miss payroll one time with a staffing company, you might not have a staffing company the next day. You know, people don't want to show up for work. They're not getting paid. You know, I think we've uh we've seen a recent example of that in our government. So, you know, those things can can uh can be challenging. So again, it's just it's just kind of making sure you ask those questions to them. Um and again, that just it just helps a bank or a lender. You know, it doesn't necessarily have to be us, but just anybody, it just helps them structure your deal more appropriately. Um and I think just it helps it helps people get ahead of things and you know doesn't create rush situations.

Scott Geller:

Joe, as a CFO and an infractional CFO, the one statement that I make maybe more than any other is you can mess up things in a business, right? You can make mistakes, but you better not miss payroll.

Joe Ford:

No, no, no. So that is uh yeah, that that is one thing that um that we all want to make sure that we understand because again, that can be just as much on the bank as it can be you know on the firm if if not more so on the bank. You know, if there's somebody that's unavailable, they don't understand, you know, when that uh reverse ACH is happening from their bank account, you know. Sure, payroll might be on Friday, but you know, that you know, an ADP or a workday or somebody like that, that reverse ACH could be happening on a Wednesday night. So you need to make sure, you know, you're processing those invoices. You need making sure that you know the borrowing base is up to date in advance of that, so that there is that liquidity there. Um, because it's not you know, in most cases, there is that liquidity there, and you just create some of those rush situations. So that just kind of further emphasizes you want somebody that wants to understand your industry, and you know, we love to understand the staffing industry. We like to hear the stories, we like to hear our clients talk, you know, about what's going on. Um, so that's always uh that's always a good way to look at it.

Scott Geller:

Well, Joe, I I I like to wrap up all of our shows with with one to three immediate takeaways. And I have a feeling if we keep going, we're gonna be talking about staffing for longer than we then you're then you're giving me time for. So we like to ask one to three immediate takeaways that our listeners could literally put into action as soon as they turn off the podcast. It could be something you already mentioned, it could be about planning, it could be around finding the right banker. What do you what do you have for us?

Joe Ford:

There was one of my favorites, and it's more of like a manual and a guidebook as opposed to a true, you know, let's call it a novel or anything like that. But uh, it's called Reality Check by Guy Kawasaki. Guy Kawasaki, the you know, famous venture capitalist of Apple. Um so your guy knows a thing or two, no pun intended. And I like it too because it's again the guidebook. When you're in the business world, we like to read bullet points, we like to read, you know, snippets as opposed to just you know long drawn-out paragraphs, things like that. And it's something that you don't have to necessarily read cover to cover, um, where there's, you know, hey, you want to learn about crafting a mission statement, you want to learn about marketing, you want to learn about, you know, financial reporting. I think it's a very digestible book and something that you can kind of pick up depending on the situation. That was a book that I remember reading in an entrepreneurship class that I had in college. So very much applicable to, you know, somebody that's starting a business. You might be, you know, a serial entrepreneur that already knows a lot of this stuff, but there's always something new that you can learn. So I think that's a fantastic book. And again, you know, coming from somebody like Guy, uh, you know, that's a that's a pretty reputable source from an entrepreneur there as well. So that's one I really like. Um and then, you know, on the staffing side, one that I was actually recently turned on with in the last few months, um, and a plug for my buddy Bob, Bob Petke, but is the Staffing Buzz podcast. You know, I would imagine you have listeners that are that are in the staffing space as well, just just given what you do. So they kind of run the game and they they keep me up to date on on all things staffing. It's probably, you know, every few weeks there's a podcast that drops and it's you know, maybe 40 minutes or something. So it's it's not you know some big investment. But Bob's great, the guests that he has on are great. Yeah, I think that's that's another fun one too. Obviously, again, more related to the staffing space, but uh, but yeah, those are those are probably my two that I'd recommend.

Scott Geller:

Great. Well, I appreciate that. Yeah, that's that's that's I like that. I have to check. I've heard the reality one, but I had to check out the the staffing one as well.

Joe Ford:

Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Geller:

Well, this has been great. Where can people find out more about you?

Joe Ford:

Yeah, I mean, you can find me um I'm on LinkedIn. Wind Trust is is all over. And again, you can you can find me on the Wind Trust website. Um I'm a member of the Turnaround Management Organization, Secured Finance Network. I I live in Chicago, but I can always be anywhere. You know, it's a beautiful thing about being next to the world's one of the world's busiest airports. Yeah, I mean, happy to provide my contact information to you if that's helpful afterwards. But Joe Ford, I know that's a pretty common name, so you know, want to uh give a little disclaimers, but if there's video associated with this podcast as well, they can they can do a little cross-referencing.

Scott Geller:

Well, Joe, thank you for for joining us. I really enjoyed you coming on and representing not only Wind Trust, but all of the regional banking organizations. Thank you.

Joe Ford:

Yeah, thank you, Scott. I uh I really appreciated the conversation and uh you know love to talk banking, love to talk wind trust, and it's always great to see you.

Scott Geller:

Well, folks, that's it for today. If you liked the show or found something useful, text someone you know and say, hey, listen, I've got this podcast, budget your business. It might be helpful for your business or or just learn something new. I'm Scott Keller, and I hope you join me next time for budget your business.