Budget Your Business

Partnerships that Pay Off and Reduce Reliance on Internal Sales with Theresa Caragol

• Scott Geller • Season 1 • Episode 40

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E#40: In this episode, Scott is joined by Theresa Caragol of AchieveUnite to explore what really makes business partnerships work. Teresa shares how a successful partnership works with marketing and internal sales or even reduce the reliance on internal sales. She shares how companies can measure and balance different trust-building styles, why the first 90 days set the tone for partnership success, and why quality beats quantity when it comes to choosing partners. Along the way, she highlights lessons from AchieveUnite’s own growth and offers practical takeaways for business leaders looking to turn partnerships into a true force multiplier. Additional topics include the benefits of her PQI framework, a science-backed way to understand and accelerate trust in teams, and following a North Star. 

Book Recommendation: 
Partnering Success, The Force Multiplier to Achieve Exponential Growth
Go-Giver by Bob Burg

Find out more about Theresa Caragol: 
achieveunite.com 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/theresacaragol/ 
Text: 770.883.7794

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Theresa Caragol:

The more we do partnerships and the more now this has been going on for the last thirty-five, forty years, we used to think, oh God, let's just sign all these partnerships and they shall come. You know what? It never works. So I a hundred percent advocate uh on quality over quantity and getting a return on your investment each time you make that investment. And that's a lesson learned the hard way from the, you know, the scrapes on the back or the um scars on the back from doing it the wrong way. Hello.

Scott Geller:

Welcome to budget your business, the podcast for small business owners who want to financially plan for every aspect of their business. I'm your host, Scott Geller. And today I'm joined by Teresa Carrigal, who I've asked to join us to talk about a sales topic, but more specifically about sales partnerships. Personally, I think it's it's an area that not everyone really values or appreciates the value of what you can accomplish through it. But Teresa's here, she's the expert, and she's going to walk us through. So hello, Teresa. Welcome.

Theresa Caragol:

Thank you, Scott. I'm thrilled to be here. Appreciate you having me today.

Scott Geller:

Absolutely. So, Teresa, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Theresa Caragol:

Great. Well, I am an entrepreneur, so a founder and CEO of Achieve Unite Inc. uh partnering success company. And I also am a mom and a wife. Uh, live in the Alexandria, Virginia area outside of Washington, DC. Uh, two boys, 12 and 16, and two Vishlas that are um a little crazy and fun. Um, an author of this book, Partnering Success, which I know we're going to talk about today. So I'm thrilled to be here about that. And uh a former tech company executive in a number of big tech companies before I became an entrepreneur. So I am used to the big corporate world also.

Scott Geller:

Well, well, well, thanks, Theresa. So that that that's exactly the reason why I wanted to have you on here. I've I try to hit different disciplines, you know, sales, marketing, IT, operations. And this is a topic that actually for me personally, I've I've becoming more and more interested in for myself. But I also, you know, I have clients I have conversations with them, and and they kind of talk about their partnerships. But I wanted to bring the expert in.

Theresa Caragol:

Thank you.

Scott Geller:

And to get kicked off, I'd like to understand from your point of view, like what is sales partner partnering?

Theresa Caragol:

Yeah, great question. So the premise of the book is that partnerships are the force multiplier to achieve exponential growth, which is the title of the book, actually. And partnerships come in lots of flavors and sizes, but we believe that every organization from its inception needs a strategy with partnerships. So you have your customers. Could be that your customers become your partners, right? Maybe they're referring business for you. Maybe they're embedding your solutions in their offerings to the market. So there's a notion that customers could become partners. There's a notion that every organization needs different kinds of relationships that are influencing and advocating for them. So maybe you have a set of influencers who are out talking about Scott Geller out in the market. Maybe you have a set of, we have a relationship with the Association of Strategic Alliance professionals, and they actually OEM our training programs into their offerings. It's a great, it's a win-win for both of us. And it allows them to have AI offerings in the market that they otherwise wouldn't have had as quickly and such high quality.

Scott Geller:

And and how does this, I mean, this is much different than an internal sales team. And I don't want to put I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it's not really intended to replace internal sales team, I don't believe. But maybe could you contrast how a the sales partnering and the and an internal sales team?

Theresa Caragol:

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I I everybody, as you mature, you need your own internal sales and marketing, right? And sometimes you need sellers, sometimes you need inside sellers, sometimes you need demand generation, sometimes you need all of those as you get bigger. And so it is not meant to replace that. However, it definitely is meant to augment and in time it might become a 50-50. You might need less sellers because your partnerships are really working for you. And you know, the notion is that if I there's a concept called partner lifetime value. If I customer lifetime value, how many cars do you buy in your life, Scott? How many? Do you have a favorite brand of a car?

Scott Geller:

Well, my latest is a Genesis. So I just got one of those and I'm enjoying that. But I'm usually one of those that buys and holds for a little bit for a long time.

Theresa Caragol:

Why does that not surprise me? That's a CFO anyway. Um, so uh we buy Mercedes. That's my favorite brand of car, and I've had four of them, and I would buy another one tomorrow. And so my customer lifetime value is over the life of my life, I would be a Mercedes owner of multiple cars. But if you have a partner who is out selling your solutions on your behalf and they can take your solutions, not only do you have five customers, you might have 25 customers because you get all of their customers. So the notion is that we can funnel and fan faster if we have a few good partnerships. And especially early on, when you're, you know, a million to 10 million, you're not gonna have 50 of these, right? You might have five of them working really well. And you have to figure out what the motion is. It is it a referral, is it a resale? Is it a embedded solution that they're taking for you? And those just depend, you know, that's part of the strategy and figuring out what the strategy is, which is all outlined in how to make those decisions in the book.

Scott Geller:

So let's maybe start from you know, a company maybe on the smaller side, or maybe they're not, but they've never had a partner's program. Or like, how do I get started?

Theresa Caragol:

Well, you have to decide, and and we do walk you through that, and we're big on whiteboarding or drawing it out, so we have graphs for you to use in the book to help you figure out what do you want? First of all, who's your ideal customer profile? Because it always starts with that. Who's your ideal? Like you're talking about you work with staffing firms, you know, we work with 300, 500 million tech companies that are really looking to build or expand partner initiatives. And so you always start with, and then who are the people that are influencing or that are calling on or that are complimentary to you in those customers. So we always go outside in in order to figure out who I should be partnering with. So let's say that you found that you call on staffing companies and there's a um, maybe there's a complimentary company that's also calling on staffing companies. Maybe it's the cleaning service or maybe it's uh, I don't know, some sort of a company that's also doing that. Maybe it's a marketing agency that's also calling on staffing companies. And you find out that there's a whole suite of these companies, legal companies that are calling on staffing companies. And so you all establish a referral program with each other because you're purely complementary to one another. And you can scale faster with you having a number of other people advocating on your behalf than just you or your salesperson. Because what we're finding in this new era, this digital AI ecosystem economy, is that you can't be everywhere. So you have to rely on other sources to find those opportunities and bring them to the table. Okay.

Scott Geller:

And do you feel like there always has to be like that financial nugget involved, that financial significance?

Theresa Caragol:

I used to say, oh no, it's okay. You can just refer business. We don't need a commercial model. If you want a partnership to stick, it has to have a commercial model with it. It has to, period, end of story. So yes, I believe partnerships require commercial models, or they're not really partnerships.

Scott Geller:

Got it. And being that, yeah, I mean, you know me well enough that I always like to talk numbers. How do you figure out what commercially is is viable as well as enough for somebody else to take it seriously?

Theresa Caragol:

So see, well, I mean, part of it is the conversation of what's viable, what's enticing for you. I had a conversation with a company and they were like, oh, we do 10%. And I said, 10% of what? You know, is it 10% of $50? Is it 10% of $100,000? What's your average sales cycle? You know, and then I said, you know, the 10% isn't great. I like it and I'll use it, but I would rather have you bring us into new customers. So then it's 10% plus they're gonna bring us into customers, or they're gonna white label our solutions. And for them, they just want us to bring them into opportunities. So it's all about identifying what's important to that organization and what's important to you, and then how much is that worth between you? And you kind of build out a financial model based on, you know, the values that you each want in the relationship. And, you know, when you're in the 2 million to 10 million, again, partnerships are just as much work as a customer is, if not more. So you have to be careful not to try to do too many. Um, I look back on our time and we invested way too much time in partnerships that didn't pay off. And that's probably another lesson learned is, you know, in this two to 10 million range, making sure that if you're putting in the effort of a partnership, that they're putting in the effort back. If you're really looking for more of an alliance kind of a relationship, if they're not putting in the effort, you shouldn't be putting in the effort, you know, because it's not gonna work if it's not, if it's all one-sided.

Scott Geller:

Got it. And it so it sounds like it's it's it's a bit of a process too. So it's not like I'm I'm coming to you and saying, oh, I'm gonna give you X amount, and here's some paper to go sell, or or here's a here's a flyer to go sell my services. It's more of a process to walk through with potential partnership um opportunities.

Theresa Caragol:

I mean, I think that's a really good point. So it's it's both. You know, in the model I just shared, I'd say that's more the motion for developing strategic alliances. But let's say Scott just wants a series of partnerships that are referral partnerships, and he just wants people to, and that's called a reflex motion. It's a motion where they're already there, and if they can throw a ball over in your fence, over your fence, they're gonna make some money and you're gonna make and you're gonna get the lead that you otherwise wouldn't get. And that's a referral model, and that's a reflex model, and that should be super simple, super straightforward. It is pretty transactional. You can have multiples of those, those are great. You just have to make sure you're cultivating them so that you're actually getting something out of them if you decide to do that. And I do think that's a very viable strategy for a two to ten million dollar company is these referral initiatives. So that's a great point.

Scott Geller:

But I tell you, you kind of have to be a little careful about like volume, isn't it? It's just not a volume play, right? There's no point in having a hundred different partnerships if you can't do anything or you don't even know them, right?

Theresa Caragol:

You know, I think the more we do partnerships and the more now this has been going on for the last 35, 40 years, we used to think, oh God, let's just sign all these partnerships and they shall come. You know what? It never works. So I a hundred percent advocate uh on quality over quantity and getting a return on your investment each time you make that investment. And that's a lesson learned the hard way from the you know, the scrapes on the back or the um scars on the back from doing it the wrong way.

Scott Geller:

Gotcha. Any any other kind of tips or or recommendations? So let's say I have an existing partnership program, it's just not really going anywhere, just not really working. Any ways to for a business owner to really evaluate it or really think about how they can do better?

Theresa Caragol:

Absolutely. We have a scorecard in the book, and you know, evaluating on quantitative criteria and understanding what those criteria are. Why did you want those partnerships in the first place? Maybe it's leads, maybe it's new relationships, maybe it's introductions, maybe it's revenue, maybe it's complimentary services. So being very clear on your metrics for success of a partnership and then evaluating that on a regular basis. And we also, you know, we've taught thousands of people in the science of business planning and joint planning, and then QBRs and monthly reviews. You know, if you're gonna have a partnership, you have to review it too. And so, how do you get on a Zoom or get face to face and review the relationship? A wise man once told me it was an IBMer and we were doing a strategic alliance when I was the global partner and alliance leader at Siena, and he said, the most action in a partnership comes 10 days before the QBR and 10 days after the QBR. And those are the big alliances, but it's true, you know, the most action comes right before the call, right after the call. So, how do you make sure that you use those as compelling events to drive relationships?

Scott Geller:

I'll get a little more detail later, but look, you know, looking through the book of the partnering success, one area that I really liked, and I'd like for you to walk us through it a little bit, because it does kind of selfishly align with with some of my approach, is your North Star alignment.

Theresa Caragol:

I love that. Yeah, that's one of my favorites. And it's one something that most people miss in a partnership. And it, if you do it right, it serves as both of your North Star. And so the process of building the North Star is what's what does Scott want out of a partnership? What does Teresa want out of a partnership? And then collectively building a North Star that we can both follow. And so we find and we build that North Star so that it's, you know, we both want to expand our business and we want referrals in staffing companies. And therefore, you know, we're gonna we're gonna share our joint partnership and maybe there's a thought leadership piece that we do about this that we share with everyone, you know, and it serves as we want to educate everyone about partnering in staffing companies. So our North Star is our philosophy on staffing company partnerships together. And then that serves as a guiding light for our relationship, but it also serves as a guiding light to educate others about what we're up to and how unique or special or differentiated it is. So the North Star can really serve to educate your people on why you're doing what you're doing with that company. You know, it really offers this almost like you know, you follow it, right? You know what you're doing. You know if you shouldn't do something because it's not aligned to the North Star, so don't bother with it, you know. Um, that's what a good North Star does for you.

Scott Geller:

And to me, Teresa, it it I think it that that expands beyond just a partnership program. Like a company should really be operating along those lines as well.

Theresa Caragol:

We just redid our mission and values because we were getting to a point where our company's changing. The people are changing. Um, not so many, uh a few of the people were changing, and just what we need and who we need to focus on is changing. And so we had to go through an exercise of redoing, you know, with AI, it's changing everything. Um, we had to go through an exercise of redoing our values and our own North Star. And I so I think you're exactly right. I think it is something, and it is something that you have to evaluate every probably two to three years.

Scott Geller:

Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. Um the the other the other framework that that is in the book is the PQI. And which is uh I to me I knew a little bit about it ahead of time, so so I knew it was gonna be in there. But if you're reading the book, it's not necessarily something you would expect, I don't think, in a partnering book. So but I think it's a really interesting development and tool that you use. So maybe you can talk us through what that is. Absolutely.

Theresa Caragol:

So PQI, think EQ, think IQ, this is your PQ, and it's your trust quotient, and it's your ability to build partnering, trusted relationships. Because what we know about partnerships is what's the number one ingredient of a successful partnership, trust and the trusted relationship that underpins it. And that could be executive to executive, that could be sales rep to sales rep, could be company to company, but company trust is built on individual trust. We had to get to the bottom of how do you measure trust and how, and because what we uncovered in our research with Arizona State, Notre Dame, and the University of Glasgow is that there are different ways that people build trust. And so, in fact, I use you as an example. I don't know if you've ever heard me on podcasts talk about Scott Geller, but I actually talk about you being a harmonizer in your trust building style because I say I always try to get a rise out of you, and I can never get a rise out of you. That's your that's your dominant trust building style, and mine is an energizer, and so we do not speak the same trust building language always. And so, yeah. So if you haven't heard some of my podcasts, I talk about Scott Geller in those. But anyway. Well, thank you. Back to back to talking about trust profiles. So, what we uncovered in the research, which actually took three years and thousands of studies, it's very scientific, it has very high Chromebook, Chromebook alpha, very high reliability, very high validity. And the the PQI assessment says, what is your dominant trial? We've done thousands of people now. Everybody has a dominant profile. About 10% have two dominant profiles, and three people out of all the thousands have three dominant profiles. So most people have a dominant way they build trust, a secondary way, and one or two very low ways that are not their trust building style. So if you can imagine that there everyone has five, there's five profiles, and everyone in the world is one of these profiles. Regardless of where you are in the world, and by the way, it works everywhere. The only thing we haven't done is done under, we didn't study under 18. So it was 18 and above. Um, although my son is also a harmonizer, so there's that. Um, but anyway, so we and and it's pretty balanced across the globe. Um, different countries air a little more towards different profile types, which is really interesting. And we're starting to study that. Men and women, actually, it doesn't matter that they have all five of the profiles. But the premise is you have to understand who you're working with and what their trust building style is. And then if we can adjust our own styles, we can accelerate trust, right? Because if you can accelerate trust, you can accelerate productivity. If you can accelerate trust, you can accelerate revenue. If you can accelerate trust, you can accelerate innovation. If you can accelerate trust, you can accelerate partnerships, right? So there's so many reasons to accelerate trust. So that is why we take this very scientific look at it and we help organizations learn what their trust building style is. And I'll just give you one last thing and then I'll be quiet is teams. So let's say that there's a team and the team has all harmonizers or all energizers. What we want on a team is a balance of strategizers, collaborators, harmonizers, energizers, and exemplars. Because if we have all five of those, then we know we have a balanced team. When we're encountering another team, we're going to be balanced if they're all leveraging one another effectively. And so this team building, trust building thing is very real. And that's some of the work that we're doing with clients now and helping them to do that better.

Scott Geller:

So this PQI sounds like you can use this to just to really well probably kick off but keep a partnership successful.

Theresa Caragol:

You can. And what we found, we thought that PQI would go right to partnerships. But where PQI is mostly used is before you get to the external partnerships, your own team has to be partnering well. And we are using it all over the place for that. And that was a big surprise to me is oh my gosh, I thought we would be doing it all about partnerships. And we are. We do partner conferences now, we do sales conferences. But I am finding that PQI has such a life inside of a company, making sure that that company is partnering with each other really well. Because if they don't partner with each other, they're darn not going to be able to partner well externally. Does that make sense?

Scott Geller:

Absolutely, yes, it does. And that's kind of where I, when I was reading, reading through the book, it it did seem like that this is something that applies not just to the partner, but within an organization too.

Theresa Caragol:

Yeah, it's so true. And so that's what we're now in the process of doing some enterprise licensing and certifying PQI practitioners and you know, moving to a model like a disc or string finders have out in the market because it's just PQI has taken on a life of its own, which is so fun. That's exciting. It is exciting, yeah.

Scott Geller:

So let me let me kind of roll back into the the the the specifically the the partnership time. I I I like to try to take an approach to this podcast of like how long is it gonna take, or what should I what are reasonable expectations if we're planning on going down this path? So Teresa, what is a reasonable, I know saying like a revenue number is really difficult, but at least like how long maybe if I'm starting up a partnership, how long should I make sure I give myself to whether it's prepared to put in place or once it in place, seen so in the first, the first 90 days are really critical.

Theresa Caragol:

And you have to have opportunities in the first 90 days, you have to have a plan in the first 90 days, you have to have executive alignment in the first 90 days. By six months, you have to have business flowing, you know, and if it's not, then that's a red flag. Or at least otherwise you're moving into that. Remember that bucket we talked about earlier, which is those referrals that are reflex and that just happen on emotion and they're kind of um best effort. Otherwise, we're moving back to that model, which, hey, if we get one of those every six months from a company, that's great, you know. But if we're moving into more strategic or more um, you know, more operational, then we need to have more happening within six months. And if we're gonna be putting more effort into it than that just reflex muscle, then we need to have it.

Scott Geller:

Great. Yeah, I appreciate that. That that's even for me selfishly thinking about this myself, that that's a really good trigger point to have have one month, three months, six months.

Theresa Caragol:

Those are good the metrics that you know, we have one month we want to have a plan, we want to have interest. At three months, we want to have funnel and pipeline and momentum, and at six months we want to have business closed. Got it.

Scott Geller:

Okay. So this is the the focus of this has been um, or the intent for the podcast has been, you know, the sales partnerships. Yeah. But being that you you have your own business, you've been running it for a while, you you you you have some very impressive client lists. I was wondering if you could share with our listeners how do you financially plan for Achieve Unite?

Theresa Caragol:

Well, Scott, you were phenomenal for us because you built our model and integrated our model into QuickBooks when we were really struggling several years ago. And that model we use today, and that helps us plan. Um, knowing whether what your entity structure is and what your goals are are really important for planning. So we do a better job of that than we used to, I think. And having revenue goals has helped us. Uh, managing cash flow, which you taught us, has helped us as well. And I would say we we are very much a really move to long-term sales where we used to be just projects. So that has really helped us have a longer strategy with our clients, longer planning with our clients, and financially sounder client relationships. And I am a big advocate of, you know, now not trying to have too many different business models because it's really hard to plan if you have that. And I think, you know, you really taught us that. And I think we're using that much more effectively now.

Scott Geller:

Well, good, good. Glad I got glad our our time together helped and and uh still using some of that. Still use the template. Absolutely. Perfect. So we we'd like to wrap up all of our shows with one to three takeaways that our listeners could, you know, as soon as they turn off the podcast, they could put in place. It could be something around partnering, it could be something around how you run your own business. But love, love to hear what what your takeaways would be.

Theresa Caragol:

So one of my takeaways is, and it was some of the best I advise I got early on when I started the company from Bob O'Malley, who actually shared in writing of the book, but he wrote the foreword for the book, and Bob is sort of the godfather of Achieve Unite. And he said, if you're a service company, productize. If you're a product company, serviceize. And we have spent the last many years productizing our offerings so that our offerings are repeatable, they have value, there's intellectual property associated with them, there's benchmarks associated with them, and I'm very, very proud of the work that we've done there. And it's allowed us to have more value for our clients. So that would be one of my pieces of advice. The second piece of advice I would say is you have to have a partner plan from inception of a company. It might be that you have an advisor, it might be that you have a board of directors that's recommending you, but you know, consider those as partner relationships, you know, not just transactional boards. So you have to have a plan about what you're gonna do from a partnering perspective, from the time you start your company. So that's number two. Number three is um know who your influences are influencers are, and that could be people, that could be companies, that could be associations and communities, but you have to know who is influencing your buyer and where do you need to be showing up from a community perspective? Who do you need to be influencing, influencing the influencers? How do you need to be communicating in those communities and with those influencers? And at best, you must understand who they are. And so those would probably be my three.

Scott Geller:

Well, thank you. Yeah, that's that's great. That they it spans a little bit of different areas. So I like that. Thank you. Thank you.

Theresa Caragol:

Thank you.

Scott Geller:

Well, we we also like to wrap up all of our shows with a favorite book or podcast. And I'm gonna go ahead and kind of start. So here I had the partnering success here.

Theresa Caragol:

Thank you, thank you. I have it here too, and it's in the back. Uh, and it hit bestseller in 28 categories, so it's done really well in the market.

Scott Geller:

So we're really Oh well, congratulations.

Theresa Caragol:

Thank you.

Scott Geller:

For me, when I was reading it, so I I like a book that kind of takes the notes for you, yeah, and and has kind of summary sections, but at the same time, have to say the examples and the explanations leading into those were were definitely worth kind of reading through all of it, not just skipping to the end. Thank you. That's awesome. Appreciate it. Uh but yeah, let the, you know, if if you want to plug, plug the partnering success or or it add anything else that you'd like to about the book.

Theresa Caragol:

Great. Well, partnering success, the force multiplier to achieve exponential growth. It's been sold all over the world, and we're really proud of the success it's having. I am happy also to do, we're doing sales conferences, we're doing partner conferences, we're doing internal team meetings. We can get copies of the books and do book signings, and we do an amazing keynote workshop and involve partners in it that we're starting to do it. We've done at several partner conferences, and it's so good and it's so fun. So we're doing things like that around the book now, um, which make it a lot of I don't know, just lively and exciting and innovative and different. You know, you go to a partner conference, you see the same thing over and over, and this is really different. We're doing PQI workshops with everyone, which is just so fun because people are like, oh my God, you know, I can't believe that CEO is a strategizer and I'm an energizer. I have to speak his language when I go meet with him face to face, you know. So that there's a lot of fun that goes into that as well. So yeah, partnering success, I would probably be the big advocate for if you don't have it, and you know, the book and also the methodology and making sure that you're doing that as part of your muscle in your business and your rigor on a day-to-day annual basis. And then I'll plug the go-giver, which is my friend Amy Cardell, gave me this book. And it's also the way she lives her life, and I live my life, which is if you help other people, you know, it just creates a flywheel. And so just continue to help and drive and and do right by people, both personally and professionally, and good things happen.

Scott Geller:

I like that that approach. I I try to follow that a bit myself. Uh so yeah, I might have to go. I've I've not heard of that one, so I might have to go check that out.

Theresa Caragol:

Yeah, great. Well, good.

unknown:

Thanks.

Scott Geller:

Well, Teresa, for those that uh might want to find out more about what you do, uh how can they how can they find you?

Theresa Caragol:

You can find me at achieveunite.com, Teresa Caragal on LinkedIn. Um, I can give you my cell phone. I have a big cell phone. 770 883 7794. Text me anytime. And um you can also find us on Facebook and Instagram. Me and big, big, big achieve unite LinkedIn. We do a lot of work on LinkedIn and our website. We teach AI prompting classes. We're doing a lot in the AI space right now. So if you're interested in AI prompting, if you're interested in PQI and getting certified in PQI, we have certification classes. If you're interested in just figuring out this model, I'm doing a workshop with a gentleman from Madrid, Spain over the next three weeks, just helping him build his plan for his company. And those are, you know, about $2,000. So they're very low cost.

Scott Geller:

Great. Well, Teresa, this has been great. I appreciate you coming on, coming on on the show. I personally have taken away some or have some takeaways from this, so thank you.

Theresa Caragol:

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Scott Geller:

All right, folks, that's it for today. If you like the show or learned something, then please share it with another business owner and help us spread the word of budget your business. I'm Scott Keller, and I hope you join me next time for budget your business.

Theresa Caragol:

The more we do partnerships and the more now this has been going on for the last 35, 40 years, we used to think, oh God, let's just sign all these partnerships and they shall come. You know what? It never works. So I a hundred percent advocate uh on quality over quantity and getting a return on your investment each time you make that investment. And that's a lesson learned the hard way from the, you know, the scrapes on the back or the um scars on the back from doing it the wrong way.